How Hopdoddy wins with third-party delivery with VP of Marketing, Jennifer Faren

The Menu Mix is a hospitality podcast that talks to senior thought-leaders across the industry, uncovering the future of the sector. Subscribe on YouTube to follow.

In this episode George Wetz (CEO) and Matt Holy (Director of Strategic Projects) chat with Jennifer Faren, VP of Marketing at Hopdoddy Burger Bar, who shares her surprisingly positive take on platforms like Uber Eats and DoorDash – and reveals how to make them work for your restaurant!

Key Takeaways

• Why Jennifer sees delivery apps as partners: Discover why Hopdoddy embraces these platforms, even though they prefer in-restaurant dining.

• The customer service advantage: Learn how delivery apps can actually improve your customer service (and save you headaches!).

• Marketing strategies that work: Get Jennifer's tips for maximizing visibility and driving sales on delivery platforms.

• Hopdoddy's unicorn casual approach: Explore how this unique blend of fast casual and quality dining translates to the delivery experience.

• Whether you love 'em or hate 'em, you need to hear Jennifer's insights on making third-party delivery work for you! Hit subscribe for more restaurant marketing brilliance.  

Episode transcript

George Wetz: Okay. So joining us today is Jennifer Farren, VP of marketing at Hopdoddy Burger Bar. Jennifer has got over 20 years of experience leading food and beverage marketing teams at various places, including Kerry Group, Brinker, Snap Kitchen, and for the last five years, she's been absolutely pivotal. in Hopdoddy's growth strategy to over 40 locations across the US. Now, for those of you who don't know, Hopdoddy is an Austin based group, and we have been absolutely huge fans ever since we moved here a couple of years ago, because their burgers are incredible, their margaritas are potent, and the vibes are sublime. So we're really thrilled to welcome you here today, Jennifer.

Welcome to the show. Yeah, that's one of the things I absolutely love. I go straight for the 

Matt Holy: Great to have you here, Jennifer. As, uh, George mentioned, we are both really, really big fans of Hopdoddy, frequent the ones around our office, pretty often. And, 

Jennifer Faren: Okay. 

Matt Holy: you, the old version of the menu mix, which, uh, some listeners might not be aware of was very much focused around menu design and menu engineering and really smart ways that brands have incorporated this into their strategy and Hopdoddy.

It was actually the first episode that we did covering menu design and menu engineering. So to kick things off, really wanted to speak with you a little bit about this space and cover off some of the things we spoke about in the episode and just kind of pick your brain around what elements you actually implemented and some of your strategy around menu design, menu engineering.

 So yeah, can you just walk us through your menu design process and how you've incorporated some of these elements, into your menu? 

Jennifer Faren: Yeah, absolutely. And I know when we chatted, it was like you're, you had a insight into my brain on some of those pieces. So very much, as we think about the menu, we're typically thinking first, like what's on the menu, right. From an operational lens. Uh, what do we think the guest wants in terms of what's popular, what's trending for foods? We talk a lot about with burgers, right? We're doing the familiar and the unfamiliar way. So we're, taking something that's not normally a burger, like the, the ahi tuna burger, right? It's like a sushi roll. But we made it into a burger format. So it's a very familiar format for the guests, but an unusual burger bill that they haven't seen somewhere else.

And that's really part of what makes us special. So as we start to think about the menu strategy, it's, Hey, how are we having differentiated products? So we've got your classic, and if you want a classic cheeseburger or bacon cheeseburger, we're going to have the best one out there. Um, because of, you know, the way that we source and our quality and how we're making the burger. But then we've got things like a Cadillac Wagyu, right? That has truffle aioli on it and arugula, and, crispy onions. And then we've got our ahi tuna, or we've got a bison burger. And so we're, we're trying to bring, some of those strategies as well. So we think about a variety perspective, in thinking about our menu categories. You know, as we're 

burgers, fries, shakes, and in the bar. So we're not a very diverse menu, but we go pretty deep within those categories. 

Matt Holy: Yeah. And one thing that we really appreciated on your menu was, you've really, it feels like you've really perfected upselling and cross selling, without having to rely On kind of team members to do so, because yes, you could order at the bar, but most of the transactions, at least within the four walls happen at the counter.

There's not a lot of time to communicate all the good things that your guests could have. So, could you talk a little bit about your upselling and cross selling strategy with like the burger upgrades and kind of truffle fries and that type of thing, and what your thought consideration was and how you included that in the menu? 

Jennifer Faren: Yeah, absolutely. And, we talk about a lot about it as a barbell strategy, right? So we're going to have some maybe more approachable items within the menu, maybe a bit more value priced or a little bit more  economical, right? If, if entry level things. And then we think on the other extreme, it's, hey, for the person that wants, an unusual burger.

They've never had somewhere else, right? Like, how do we entice them? and having, , that more unusual, you know, whether it's the build, typically those ingredients have a lot more layers. It gets to be a bit more expensive of a burger and item. And so, and it may be a bit more adventurous for some people, right?

When they come in that they're. thinking I'm going to cheeseburger and then something catches their eye. And they're like, well, I've never had that before. Right, a great place for us to be able to introduce that to them. So we, we do think about that within the category and these are the magic number of seven, I'm a big believer in odd numbers in a category. Also seven is probably about the max. I find kind of five to seven in that sweet spot of when you start to get too many choices and, It gets a little bit, a bit, anxiety for the guests, right? When they're waiting in that cashier line and there's so many things to read and look at, it starts to feel a little bit too overwhelming for them.

We don't want that experience, right? We want them delighted in for them to kind of make their way and be like, Oh, I've never seen that before. I've never had that before. And so we do that within the burgers. And then, um, as you mentioned, the fries were really famous for those as well. And so we've got our amazing hand cut fries. they're delicious just the way they come. And then we also have lots of ways we'll toss them in sauces or put toppings on them. Right. like our nacho fries are a truffle fries where they're a bit more of an elevated experience. 

Matt Holy: Yeah, that's great. Another really interesting thing that's kind of unique to Hopdoddy is, is really, it's this blend of, you know, counter service and order at the bar. It's, it's not quite fast casual. It's not quite QSR. You definitely have your off premise element, but how do you balance this mixed, approach, if you will, into your menu and, and are there some, I guess, operational considerations that go into the way that.

You've designed either the dishes, or, or the way that you frame things on your menu. 

Jennifer Faren: definitely, you know, from an operational, the layout of the restaurants, it's very intentional and, um, don't fit in any of the categories. So, so I know our CEO loves to talk about it as more unicorn casual. So I think, you know, when Hopdoddy started 14 years ago, it was, Hey, there's this new thing kind of like fast casual, but a lot of fast casuals, honestly, like a scoop and serve type approach, right.

Or it's some pre made foods and Hopdoddy isn't. Pre make anything, right? We're making it to order. And so we, we kind of ride that line. And like you're saying, we, we like the advantages, um, for the guest visit and the amount of time it takes from that ordering experience when it's a queuing up at the cashier. And then after the cashier, we're going to give you full service. So it's a little bit more like casual dining at that point, right? If we can get you another beer from the bar. Um, like you said, if you're in the know and, and, uh, a hobdaddy regular, if you sit at the bar, you get full service all the time. Uh, but yeah, we kind of know that to know the air, be a Hopdoddy person to, to remember that when you come in. And so most people order at the cashier, like you're saying, and the cashier is able to help walk them through the menu and get them excited about the order. And then from there, we've got a team on the floor, right.

That's helping take care of them and hopefully getting them a second round or a milkshake from the bar. 

George Wetz: VAR. As soon as I get in, especially if there's a,

Jennifer Faren: yeah. 

George Wetz: and I'm like, no, I'm just going to go to the bar. Um, yeah, just go straight in. Um, because as you say, you, and, and your bar stuff as well, you, you always, I always have a really good interaction. Like they're very personable. They kind of chat to you.

It feels like an experience, you know, in and of itself, just being there, but you're getting that, that full service element to it, which I really, really like. Uh, the, one of the other things we really love is, all of your burgers a month. So every month you've got something new coming on the menu. , and they're really, really good.

You know, they're the thing that it's always part of the consideration set for me. So I'd love it if you just tell us a bit more of the philosophy around doing these monthly rotations. And, just before the show, you were telling us about, you know, some of the success rates of different burgers. So it'd be great if you could share that with the crowd as well. 

Jennifer Faren: absolutely. So as we think, you know, we've, got 17 burgers in the menu. So we do have a lot of variety. As I said before, we're, we're narrow in our categories, but really deep in those categories. but we also there's some, and some of those burgers have been on the menu since the pandemic. Day one being in 14 years ago.

So they're, they're tried and true. Um, but we, we, we love to watch what's going on with food in the world. And, you know, we get a lot of inspiration from all of us eating out in restaurants and experiencing new things. take a lot of inspiration from what's going on on social media, right. And I think that the Tik TOK ages and how that influences a lot of food trends.

And so we, we monitor those channels and then, know, we want something new and something adventurous. For our guest space that wants to try something new every time they came in. So there's some folks that I'm getting the magic shrimp every time. Or like you're saying a lot on Poblano, a secret menu treasure there. And they want that. And we're, we're, we're happy with that. We also have a good portion of guests that are like, Hey, I want something different, I want something new. And I want to see what you guys do next. Like, what can you burger, right. And taking something like a chicken parm and making it into a burger.

Yeah. And so that's what really inspires our burger of the month is, uh, are there trending flavors? Are there really popular foods that don't normally come as a burger, you know, something between two buns. We talk a lot about that. And so every month we come up with something and sometimes they do better than others.

Sometimes we're maybe, bit too culinary forward with them, but we've had some really fun ones the last couple of months. We had a, it was called the Korean Soul. It was a fried chicken burger that had a gochujang pepper sauce on it, a slaw, with pickled cucumbers. It was, it was so good. The, the flavors and the, the textures together were such an experience.

And that's, that was a really fun one. That was a summer. Um, right now we've got a smash burger and it's the best selling burger of the month we've ever had. And so we're having a lot of fun with that one. And we get a lot of feedback from our guests. , if they've had, we had the same thing when we had our patty melts a few years ago as a special, and now it's on the menu because people loved it so much. Um, but it was, Hey, it tastes so good. It's so much better, right. Than everywhere else with just, again, our, our sourcing and how we're making our food. It can be the, The same thing you might see in another menu, but it's going to taste so much better. And so , we're seeing that right now. And people, they're really loving the smash burger.

So we'll see if, if that one sticks around or makes a comeback. Normally, if they're really popular, we'll bring them back in that rotation. And so if we're doing 12 burgers a year on this menu rotation, maybe three or four of them will be fan favorites, that they just are, I wouldn't say demanding, but almost demanding, right?

They're like, when is this one coming back? We want to have it again and then maybe The other six to eight or nine of them are going to be something new and something that's caught our attention or that we're inspired by. 

George Wetz: And you took, you talked a lot about the inspiration there. I'm curious, It was really obvious when I go in there that trends and like recent   emerging trends have already made their way onto the menu, like very short amount of time. , how do you move so quickly? you're picking up trends on social media.

You're having a monthly conversation. How do you move so quickly, especially when those new burgers, I guess sometimes they've got new ingredients and then you might have to get the supply chain in place to also be able to do, how does that, how does that work? 

Jennifer Faren: Yeah. I'd say probably two things. Um, we've got amazing operators in our restaurants and, um, they are, you know, they're always yes and yes for sales and yes for delighting our guests. Right. And so, so yeah. So we've got a great relationship amongst our teams and an ability to pull that off. And then similarly, probably from the supply chain, this is maybe one of those moments where they always talk about David or Goliath, right? And in my past career, I've worked for some really big brands. And there's a lot of advantages that come with that in terms of their scale and their awareness and their budgets. and so sometimes it's good to be Goliath, but sometimes it's also good to be David and being, the size that we are, we can be pretty nimble to doing things. You know, we have a pretty big, line in our kitchen.

We have a lot of stuff again. And so there's a lot of combinations we can make. And then usually we're sourcing a couple of ingredients, but it's, it's nice to be a bit smaller brand that can be nimble with those things and be able to react to stuff much quicker than some of the large brands can. 

George Wetz: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And that using that being smaller than the big brands, using that for your advantage in the market and being agile. 

Another thing around supply chain is You talk about on the menu, your actual, branded, ingredients. So vital farm eggs, and force of nature meet on there. And that's a trend where you, we have seen in, more fine dining or local restaurant joints, but not so much a chain of your size. So could you talk us through like why you made that decision to actually, reveal who the end uh, source was and, and what kind of impact you think that has on customers 

Jennifer Faren: yeah. You know, there's, um, and we probably could have a bunch more and sometimes it's many real estate, right? And y'all are, we're discussing some of that, uh, trying to use every inch we can without it being overwhelming. And so on some of our digital platforms where we can be a bit more wordy, we have even more brands. We're sourcing the best product we can go find. And so some of the thought and some of those products is one. We want to be able to convey a quality point right in these brands and stand for something that matches our values. And so we find a great relationship with these partners and we want to help give them exposure and get people introduced to them. Um, and then we also. And we like to tell a story, maybe a little bit of the Tillamook cheese or the vital farms eggs, right? when our guests go to the grocery store, these are the things they're going to see. If you'd say on that top shelf, right. Or the, the highest priced ingredients. And so sometimes when they're starting to understand Hopdoddy's a premium experience and those brands are good illustrations of those proof points of like, Hey, we're We're not buying a commodity source product.

You know, we're buying the best eggs. We're buying grass fed pasture raised meat right from force of nature. And so we're excited about these partnerships and what they're trying to do for the future of the world and food and the quality. And so we want to be able to leverage their brand recognition and then also give them, Exposure as well.

There's a lot of people may not know some of these brands and they get to try it at a hop today. They get to try a regenerative grass fed be for bison patty on our menu. And then they see it when they go to wherever their favorite grocery store is. Right. And then there may be more apt to want to buy that product as well.

So it's, it's really about a partnership with the brands and, Like I said, we've got a whole host more of them that don't always make the menu, but we like to help tell their stories is we're really proud of sourcing in that way in our standards. 

George Wetz: Yeah, we've talked to quite a bit on this show about, different generational trends and Gen Z in particular, and there. Seeking out of transparency and authenticity. 

Jennifer Faren: Mm 

George Wetz: I think that's one of the effects that I really see for you on the menu of saying who the end supplier is and then recognizing, Oh, it's that brand I've seen in the grocery store.

They're a premium. I know about that brand, therefore good brand association is, is that a general trend though, that you've seen over the past few years, consumers wanting to understand more about. You know, the sourcing and the transparency behind the ingredients for the food brand. I 

Jennifer Faren: Absolutely. And I'd say even before Gen Z, I feel like millennials started some of that in the last decade where there was just a lot more, for both fronts, as you're saying a lot more need or want for transparency. And then they have an amazing ability for authenticity. Right. So I feel like they can. I don't know if I'm supposed to say that word when we're on air, but they have a BS meter that is just unreal. Right? And so I think, uh, we've started to watch that and that's, that's, that's part of who Hobb Doty is, right? As a brand, we are, uh, very serious about some things, but we also don't take life's too seriously.

I tell people, well, I'm like, we're selling burgers and beer, um, really good burgers and beer and, and we're gonna do something really well if we're gonna do it right. Um, but, not taking ourselves too seriously and being authentic to like, yeah, this is how we do it. And this is. This is why we do it this way. 

George Wetz: love that. And yeah, BS is definitely okay on this show.

Jennifer Faren: Yeah, okay. 

Matt Holy: Yeah, no, it's, that's really interesting. And I mean, staying on, on track with kind of millennials and Gen Z, there's, there's also another trend that seems to be driven by these generations, these demographics that, um, you're, you're doing some interesting things with. Um, so a lot of, uh, the younger generation, they're drinking a lot less.

Uh, you know, beer and margarita is a big part of your mix. But, uh, as, as more and more Gen Z, especially, uh, visit your restaurants, it's important to have more beverage mixes that cater to their preferences where they're, they're not drinking as much. So can you speak a little bit to some of the things you're doing maybe around like milkshakes and dirty sodas and.

Just, yeah, delivering some fun options for the either sober curious or fully sober, uh, demographic. 

Jennifer Faren: yeah, absolutely. We, you know, I'd say our goal is, um, we want you to have a great beverage experience in our restaurants that, that mirrors and hangs on par with our burgers and fries. Right? And so, as you said, we do a very potent margarita. So if that's your thing, we've, you know, for a burger joint, we've got one of the best margaritas out there.

Frozen margaritas. It's a recipe. Some of our founders made famous and it's still that same recipe, right? And people love it. Um, and so, so we've got a lot of those, we've got a lot of craft beer. Um, and, but more recently we've been starting to play more with, Hey, we've, um, you know, I've got a partnership with Coke.

And so from a fountain soda perspective, we've got some premium lemonades and kind of that area, which I feel like it's a lot of brands do those things, right.  And that that's there. Um, we've been curious about how do we sell more for the, for the Generations a year for the folks that are coming in and don't want alcohol or maybe don't want alcohol and ever experience, right?

If they're going to come to Hopdoddy every couple of weeks, they may not be coming every time for an alcohol focused experience. And so we did an LT of the summer with the dirty sodas trend and had a lot of fun with that, where it was, you know, it's felt kind of like an old fashioned or an Italian soda, right?

It's some type of sparkling soda flavors or syrups and, and. Cream element to them. They feel very indulgent. They feel very fun. It's not something people, you know, can just go buy at a gas station or C store on their way home. So a bit more craft and, and, um, experiential there. And we're starting, we're going to play with that a lot more coming up, um, next year in Q1, we've got a lot of work going right now into those mocktail type options that we think our guests would like, where again, you may either Be sober, be sober kids or just, you know, not want to have a beer or margarita on every visit and, and we sure don't want to sell you water.

Right? We want to, we want to get something in your hands that is unique to help daddy. And that helps build that experience. 

Matt Holy: Yeah, it definitely makes sense. I mean, as good as the margaritas are, you're, you're absolutely, you're absolutely right. Sometimes, you know, go on a Tuesday or something and, uh, Uh, yeah, you, you, you want to stay fresh for the rest of the week. So you still want to enjoy the burger, but you want some interesting flavors on the beverage side too.

So, uh, yeah, really excited to see what you come up with their, um, transitioning the conversation, uh, a little bit. To third party delivery. So we were, we were talking previously about kind of what Hopdoddy looked like before the pandemic is very much on premise focus, obviously big, big pivot happened with the pandemic.

And, um, you mentioned that third party delivery, um, coming out of the pandemic was a big part of your strategy, but remains a really focal point. In your off premise strategy and your sales mix, um, there are, there are some operators out there who, uh, you know, think it's a necessary evil, but don't necessarily have the best things to say about third party delivery.

But from the sounds of it, your relationship with them, uh, is a really good one is a really strong one. So could you speak to your third party delivery kind of relationship and strategy and, um, yeah, how it's been kind of great for Hopdoddy. 

Jennifer Faren: Yeah, absolutely. And I know when we were first talking, I feel like I might even volunteer that up as I'm like, sometimes I feel like I'm looking at a totally different than everybody else. And I'm like, well, wait a minute, Do I need to reconsider some of my beliefs here, but we very much value our third party partnerships. they've helped, I mean, the business has changed a lot since pre COVID, you know, Hopdoddy maybe did a couple of points of off premise business at that point, where really an on premise brand. And it's still, if I can choose, I want you to come into my restaurant because the food quality is going to be better, the vibe, the music.

Like there's just so much that I'm not able to extend, deliver the same way when you order for delivery. But I think we also recognize the world has changed and there's a, uh, a use case in an occasion where it may be the same guest that comes into our restaurants, but for whatever reason, this occasion is they're like, I don't have time.

I don't, but I want, I'm craving hot daddy. Right. And I want you to bring it to me. Um, is probably one segment that we see there. And then we see some guests, you know, that that's just how they eat out now. They don't really go out to restaurants as much as they used to. And this serves that void when they're not wanting to cook or pick up meals from, from grocery or somewhere else.

You know, I think we've, we've seen so much of the prepared foods world evolve as well, um, eating in the restaurants, but, you know, Coming out of the pandemic and certainly during the pandemic, a lot of delivery volume and a lot of our guests wanting to transact with us. And that way we look at those partners very much as, as are those, um, I guess, partners as partnerships, right.

And, and they're, they're out there acquiring new guests. They are really good at that. And they've built a business really off. You can't, you can't. You can't get too much more, uh, further down in the funnel, the purchase funnel, right. Then when someone's getting on Uber and they're looking for food and they're hungry and they're like, I want food right now, you know, I'm trying to make sure we stand out in that environment.

And so a lot of the things, right, if I have really good reviews, who've got a high volume, you're naturally going to rise up in their algorithm algorithms and show up for those search volumes. But it's kind of become another platform. Like, uh, in my mind, I compare the media spend against our Google search, right?

If someone's actively looking for food or they're searching for burgers or, or maybe fried chicken or one of the categories they might not think about us, how do I make sure I'm above the fold, right? Or above the top 10, I'm in that first part of the pack that they're looking at, because I know if I can get them to see pictures of my food, I'm probably going to win that order, right?

And so I just want to make sure typically our organic rankings get us Uh, a lot of volume from that. We do really well in those platforms, but I think it's also become, um, a big part of our media mix that these, you know, both Uber and, and DoorDash are big too. We also have great relationships, uh, with Favor here locally in Grubhub, but they've, they've got a captive audience and they have monetized those eyeballs.

And so sometimes I see a lot of rhetoric out in the industry of, oh, it's, it's. You know, necessary evil and they're ruining our business and, um, I don't look at it that way. Right. Is I think these guests tend to be our least price sensitive. And so we're able to bake in the commission piece and the piece that, you know, Uber takes from that pie in, in the total scheme of what the guest is willing to pay for that experience.

And so, um, I don't make any less on these orders than I make in my restaurant. Do I want you in my restaurant? Absolutely. But if I'm not going to wheel a win or for whatever reason that occasion is an off premise visit, I don't want to give up on it, right? There's a, it's a, it's a huge marketplace now of volume that's happening that we, we want to win and we want to get sales and we want to be able to, to, Service with our guests, if they're looking for burgers or they're looking for us, or if they've never heard of us, and they're just looking for burgers and they stumble across to us, um, it's a good way for us to introduce ourselves to people.

And so we, we look at the brand, the platforms, um, and I think if you structure your, your business model, the right way, You can absolutely be just as profitable on these platforms. And it's a pretty low media investment platform to be able to drive sales and volume in, in, in traffic. And end of the day, that's, it's my job, right?

I got to grow sales for this brand and keep really introducing new people and building brand fans. And so I see them as an important part both my marketing mix on the media side, but also just in our go to market strategy in terms of our channels, you know, one restaurant and kind of ballooned out our reach a bit more. 

George Wetz: That is a very compelling rebuttal against people who, you know, do not, you know, aren't so positive about third party delivery, the exact way you've just said it. And for this, we were thinking of a corollary as well, like knowing a bit about your thinking here. And They're a shop window where there are brands that maybe previously I went to Where I might have gone direct but because i'm there and i'm ready to buy either they're in the conversation as an option the product I'm looking for, whereas they might not have been before, or secondly, it's an opportunity to acquire new customers to experience your brand for the first time. And the interesting kind of, kind of philosophical question it raises. I was at a show last week and someone said, you know, you've got to remember these aren't your customers. necessarily when they first came in, they were Uber's customers or they were customers and they're directing them to you. So my question is, like philosophically, how do you think about what is the customer in this relationship? You know, how do you think about individual customers that are exploring both channels? And talk us through a bit about your philosophy around that. 

Jennifer Faren: Yeah, I believe it's gorgeous. Both. Um, there's absolutely people that are on Uber transacting with hub daddy that have never heard of Hopdoddy. And it is our method of acquiring a new guest or getting, you know, them to try us for the first time. And then I believe we have people that. have been to a Hopdoddy. Um, but order through an uber platform, right? I think that's where the pinch point and the rub always seems to be with different operators. And I, you know, we've done a lot of guest research and just asking them, Hey, when they're thinking about it, if they think I'm hungry for Hopdoddy, they'll tend to probably come to our website or come to our restaurant first. If they think I'm hungry, I need food and I want delivery. They, they tend to want to go to the delivery partners first, right? I'm like, I know I'm going to get a delivery occasion. I don't know what I want to eat yet. It's kind of like when you used to have the mental selection set in your head. And I feel like you text back and forth with my husband and I'm like, Hey, what do you want for dinner?

Right. It's like, Hey, I'm going to get on there and then I'm going to figure it out what I want for dinner. And so I don't, I don't believe those guests were my guests to begin with that they just. Stole my transaction. It was, Hey, they were hungry. They went to Uber to find something and then maybe they found me and they knew about me before, but I'm not sure I would have been part of that selection set because I wasn't top of mind when they first thought I was hungry, right?

It wasn't, I'm hungry for Hopdoddy. hungry. I need delivery. Oh, let's get hopped out. Right. And so I, I think there's probably both guests on there and I, I, um, if you call it renting those guests, right, there's probably some on there that are hopped out of guests and there's some guests that I'm, I'm renting and I'm able to, like you say, like, like an Amazon transaction, they're there and they're loyal to those platforms.

You know, we've, we've also learned and done a lot of research on. Hey, you pay more. You usually have a less, uh, more limited menu. Like why don't you come to me to order? Why, why are you going there to order? And you know, most of the time it is, as I think about a platform, cause I'm thinking about an occasion, I want delivery.

And I think about that first. And then I start finding my way. And then the other big reason was really, Hey, if I've got a problem, I mean, that's what these businesses are there for. They are really good at the logistics. They're really good at the driver networks, and they're really good at customer service.

If something goes wrong, they're like, Hey, if I've got a problem, I am text chatting with whether it's a bot or the platform or something, but someone's taking care of me immediately. got a problem and I've ordered through hop studies delivery. It may not be quite as fast, unfortunately, and I wish we were, but, but our core business is making burgers and serving the guests in our restaurant.

And so I don't have a, maybe again, being a small brand, I don't have a big team that's on like a customer service role, kind of chat, batting you back and forth, helping take care of your experience. Right. And so we found that, that, um, Uber and DoorDash and the like, they've really built a business there.

That's their business is, Hey, if we mess up, right, we want to be able to take care of the guests and make it right. And they're much more nimble and resource to be much more nimble at that. And so we find that that drives a lot of loyalty for their, know, a guest thinking, Hey, I'm a, I'm a DoorDash guest or I'm an Uber guest.

And I might get hopped out of that way versus, um, that, that DoorDash took my business away from me. Yeah, mm hmm. Mm

Matt Holy: It's a really interesting point. Yeah. I mean, 

Jennifer Faren: Mm

Matt Holy: yeah, you, you assume as like a really, really big brand. Yes. You might have the resources and the logistics to deal with guest recovery, but you know, that that's the space we're in and we, we know how important guest recovery is and, uh, you know, you don't get that opportunity very often as well, right?

There's, there's so, there's so many options out there. So if you could leverage these third party platforms to help take care of a lot of that for you, that's, that's a really big win. And, uh, Yeah, what you said about the choice drivers, I think it's, it's really interesting. I mean, restaurants, I, I think it's, it's really similar to like choosing a show on Netflix or something like you sit down, you know, like I want to watch a show or I want to watch a movie, like, you know, the time commitment that you're, you know, Kind of willing to give even though you might go way over that sometimes but um with restaurants It's the same thing, you know, you want to eat now, you know, you don't want to cook you know, you want something delivered and then you kind of just let the options surface to you and see what looks good and um, yeah, you might have a few in mind and if there's a handful of brands that you're Loyal to, and they're one of the top options in the app and boom, you know, you're, you're going to go order with them.

So, um, yeah, just really interesting the way that, that you think about that. Uh, previously though, you mentioned, um, that you've seen some really good success in kind of leveraging some of the marketing strategies and marketing spend within these third party platforms. Uh, you spoke about how it's like kind of up there with your Google rankings and that type of thing and Google spend as well.

So. Could you walk us through, uh, like what are some of the strategies that you implement with third parties, uh, from a spend perspective specifically, where you've seen some really good ROI, really good traction. 

Jennifer Faren: Yeah. Yeah, it's, um, it is in my mind. It's, uh, I'm sure they've taken a dent out of Google's ad business there, right? But you think about, you might have previously gone to Google to search for, like, burger delivery or burger restaurants, right? Near me. Um, And now if they already know they want that delivery occasion, they're probably bypassing that and going straight to an Uber or DoorDash like platform, right?

And they're searching within that. And so for us, as we started to test the space, you know, we're, we're very much focused with our media investments on where do we get our best return? It's one of the first and layers in the strategy, right? If I give a dollar here, here, here, where am I getting the best return back? And, you know, one advantage that these platforms have is its full funnel attribution, right? So it's closed circle. I can, I know exactly what I'm getting off the investments I put out there. for restaurants, a lot of our volume is within our restaurants and that you're not able to track all the way through the digital funding, right?

We're not an e commerce company. Is it, so these guys really have an advantage in that way from proving the media return. And, you know, I think Google's come close to a lot of their products and we, we still invest a lot in those types of products, but we're really looking at it as like what channel gets us the best return. Um, You know, we, we absolutely want to drive dining. Like I was saying before. And so sometimes we're willing to spend and invest a little bit more for that type of visit over a delivery visit. But we find these platforms are very, they've, I think I mentioned this before. You can't get too much further down the funnel as someone that's actively looking for food and they're hungry for food. Um, versus maybe if they're scrolling on social media and it's a more passive right way of me getting my food in front of them. Um, they're not at the moment trying to find food. They may remember me the next day or two, or I made them really hungry that craving kicked in and they're like, Oh, we got to go to Hopdoddy. Um, but when you're on a delivery platform looking for food, I find it's probably as low as you can get. And so jumping in front of those eyeballs tends to be more efficient in that way, right? Because you're, You're,   if you say fishing with an audience that is already looking to purchase versus advertising to someone that is trying to catch up on their feet or their stories or something.

And so we look at these, um, platforms and a lot of the spend we do on them, you know, there's kind of two categories and put most of it in. They do a lot of promotional offers. So, and, and at the last six months, it's got, I feel like out of control on these platforms, but you go on there and there's, there's tons of brands and tons of offers, right?

So if it's, Free items or dollars off or different strategies. That's one way in, in both the Plat or a lot of the platforms, have almost like a Deer Deals carousel. You can start scrolling through, right? For a consumer or a guest. Um, and so that's one piece and, and we do a little bit of that, but we don't do a lot of discounting for a brand, and so majority of our investments on these platforms are more of your traditional CPC. So it's just bidding on those search terms and being able to get the top of those lists. Um, and then we know if we can get there both our, you know, reviews and our, our, the pictures of our food and just the offering we have that we're probably going to win that visit. Right? So it's, it's how do we make sure that we're getting to the top? Um, they've gotten a lot smarter too, with their products and the sense of, you know, Uh, you know, we can customize what picture shows up now, depending on what you searched as our head, there are, you know, profile picture on the app. So, um, they did a Uber, uh, a year, maybe a year and a half ago now did like a video test.

And I think it kind of crashed their system with the amount of video footage brands were trying to put in for ads, but, uh, it was amazing. We got to be part of that beta. And then we were like, Oh, why can't you keep doing that? And they're like, yeah, the amount of, uh, and I know enough on technical to be dangerous, right?

So they're like, we can't have every brand on every. our platform doing video ads. Um, so I don't, I don't think they're doing that as actively now, but they're actively trying to work on it too. Right. They know that that, um, has become a revenue stream for them, but for, for our perspective, uh, a lot of the investments around the CPC. I literally do compare it to, like, what do I spend on Google to get a conversion or what do I spend on on these platforms? 

George Wetz: That makes, it makes so much sense knowing your brand so well because Now we've talked a lot recently about value in the market and value doesn't mean cheap. It doesn't just mean promotions. It's the quality you get for the price you pay. And I think one of the reasons I love your brand is because that equation just spot on. you get something really good quality for a really decent price and it's executed as well over and over again. So yeah, your, it sounds like your strategy to focus more on being at the top of the results so people can assess your value. yeah, it really makes sense. And it just to kind of close out, like all of the, the innovation that you've shared with us today that you've been doing around your menu and staying on top of trends, all of that feeds into this overall, I guess, feeling of like the quality and the freshness and the newness that adds up into a value proposition that's, um, just killer in the market.

So yeah, it's been great talking to you today, Jennifer. Um, and so this is Jennifer Farren, VP of marketing at Hopdoddy Burger Bar. And you can actually learn a bit more about Hopdoddy. You can follow them on the socials with at Hopdoddy for Instagram and X, and then at Hopdoddy Burger Bar, if you want to use TikTok. And Jennifer's also on LinkedIn. So check out all of her. Updates on there. So Jennifer, thank you so much. This conversation, an absolute pleasure having you on the, on the show today. 

Jennifer Faren: Absolutely. Thank you guys. We'll, we'll see you in Hopdoddy soon.

George Wetz: Absolutely.