Practical Hospitality Sales Advice with Kim DeCarolis, former SVP at Craveworthy Brands

The Menu Mix is a hospitality podcast that talks to senior thought-leaders across the industry, uncovering the future of the sector. Subscribe on YouTube to follow.

In this episode George Wetz (CEO) and Matt Holy (Director of Strategic Projects) talk to Kim DeCarolis, hospitality sales leader and former SVP of Strategic Growth at Craveworthy Brands. Kim discusses her career journey from vendor to the brand side of the hospitality industry. The conversation covers everything from sales tips, to female leadership in hospitality and applications for AI in hospitality tech.

Key Takeaways

1. Relationships Matter: Kim highlights the impact of her mantra "two deposits before a withdrawal" in relational sales.
2. Transparency Builds Trust: Kim speaks to the benefits of open communication in both software sales and restaurant franchising.
3. Embrace Diversity: Kim advocates for greater diversity in hospitality leadership, highlighting the need for mentorship and inclusive environments.
4. Authenticity & Balance: Kim discusses management styles for the next generation of leaders that prioritizes flexibility, work-life balance, and authenticity.
5. AI's Role in Hospitality: Kim explores AI's potential in hospitality tech, including interesting views on dynamic pricing, and emphasizing the importance of preserving the human element of hospitality. 

Episode transcript

Matt Holy: Joining us today is Kim DeCarolis, former SVP of strategic growth at Craveworthy Brands, spearheading the strategy behind their over the last couple of years. Kim's growth within the hospitality space is an interesting one, as she actually started on the vendor side, leading sales teams at Punch, Seven Rooms, and PathSpot.

She's also a regular on industry panels and in hospitality media like National Restaurant News and QSR Magazine. And now she's on the menu mix, Kim, welcome to the show.

Kim DeCarolis: Thank you, gentlemen, for having me.

George Wetz: Awesome. Kim, we're very excited to have you on the show stage because of your wide ranging experience, but also how quickly you've moved up the ranks in the sector. So we're going to touch on a few topics around that, but I think I'm going to be very interesting to listeners and that's where I really wanted to start was because you've had roles on the vendor side selling software, into restaurants and then you've now been merchant sides.

You know, we actually had a conversation with Bruce McAdams who's a university professor and he was talking about how brands are finding it more difficult to recruit from within and are increasingly looking outside. you're one of those people that's been attracted from the outside So What was it that convinced you to make that change?

Kim DeCarolis: Um, so, you know, I think it's been an interesting change. I think, to be honest, everyone should play both sides. You have a little bit more compassion for being on the brand side as vendors approach you where, you know, you truly respond by saying, I think your tech is great or I think your services are needed.

But right now, we just simply cannot onboard you. We can't. Either afford you or it's just, you know, you know, the capital is not there for this. So, um, I definitely suggest it to everyone. Um, and so I have always been on the vendor side and then I made the switch over to brand side, um, when I started at fat brands. And so I met Andy and Jessica, who's on their team as well at a conference called Prosper, and we, we had great conversations about what we're talking about today, you know, your career growth, what they were looking for, and, you know, um, leaving the conference, uh, Andy said, you're going to come work for me.

And I said, doing what like I'm on the vendor side, I don't even know what you're talking about and, um, you know, great relationship with them, but they just, called me and we had a nice conversation and just chose to take a leap and try the brand side. And then, um, obviously, Craveworthy was a similar situation where, to Greg a little bit about what his, uh, vision was for Craveworthy and in the growth that could be there, um, playing up to some of the strengths by acquiring brands and seeing where we can kind of get foundational. Let's call it technology or processes in place to grow those brands and then obviously grow Crayworthy. So those opportunities were exciting to me. Um, and it's always important to keep learning. So I learned a little, a couple of new things that fat brands learned a lot at Crayworthy and, um, you know, keeping that journey going today.

George Wetz: That's very interesting. You talked about, uh, the compassion kind of having sides of that. I guess if you were now speaking to your former self who was working vendor side, now that you've been on operator side, kind of advice would you give to your former self about. How you might have performed even better or, or sell more or have better relationships with, with operators.

I think it's super important 

Kim DeCarolis: Um, obviously a lot of networking goes on at shows. Um, if you have the ability to get a meeting with someone, take, you know, court reporter notes, um, and making sure that you are listening to what they're saying in terms of when timing will work, what their actual struggles are so that every conversation with them is meaningful because they're getting hit up from every single direction on every single services, whether it's in your department or not.

I had someone reach out to me about chains and packaging. I'm like, to do with me. I'm not even going to be in the room with this decision is made. So, making sure that, you know, you're being courteous of their time and then, um, being, um, very conscious on your, let's call it reach out.

Right. So one of my favorite, any relationship in life, including your checking account should have two deposits before withdrawal. And so every time you reach out to someone regarding, know, if something you need, hopefully you're not talking about yourself at least twice. are you doing at work?

What are you most proud of? Um, how's your family life? How's travel? What's going on there? And just making just these simple touches. That way, when you do reach out and say, I would love to talk to you about if I'm able to help you with whatever you're selling, um, people are much more apt to have those conversations and be honest with you because you've come off as a human versus leading the conversation about yourself.

And I think that's something that. Needs reminders in the space. You know, everyone gets them. You get linked in requests or you get emails. And the 1st letter of the email is I'm reaching out because I work here and I want you to have a meeting and I want you to also schedule the meeting. That's a big pet peeve of mine as well. Um, so I, uh, you know, Think that there's really just compassion on understanding what brand side people are going through, you know, about a lot of different hats are worn on brand side. And then also compassion for the vendors that, you know, they have jobs at shows to get people at dinners, to get people at happy hours.

And so from the brand side point of view is I try my very best to respond to what I can, um, to give at least honest answers by saying this isn't even on the radar this year. Um, and, you know, make sure that I do RSVPs appropriately. So. That's my feedback on being both sides. It's just making sure that everyone's trying to do a good job of what they do.

But, um, a little compassion is sometimes goes along with,

Matt Holy: Yeah, I love that. The, uh, the, the mantra of, you know, two deposits before a withdrawal, I think is just, so widely applicable across different sectors and just business as a whole. That that's really great. Um, but it sounds like relationship and, uh, relationship management and compassion is like really at the core of, you know, what we're Uh, I guess your, your sales style, but, you know, selling software is super different from selling a restaurant, a restaurant brand to like a franchisee.

So what are some of the other, core lessons, uh, throughout your journey that have a wider business, uh, application that, that you could share.

Kim DeCarolis: um, I think being comfortable with the uncomfortable and that goes on both sides as well. So, you know, letting people know that this software is not developed in this area, but this is what we're doing that way later down the road, if something doesn't work, you said we, we communicated about this follow up emails are super important for this as well, but you know, we communicated about this, that it's in its MVP stage. You agreed that you would grow with us in this. So we're asking for some grace while we kind of work through the process there. And then the same thing really goes with the franchisees. You know, people call and they're just like, Oh, so you're going to make me a millionaire and I don't really have to be in store. running a restaurant is hard and you have to be there. And it's a little unglamorous when you are the  owner and you're there at 8:30 PM cleaning out a grease trap. those are things that you have to do and you have to be passionate about it. So I think, you know, it'd be easy just to say, yes, sign up.

This is the American dream and, and just go with it and let them figure it out. But I think having honest conversations with people and, you know, the good, bad and ugly, um, really level sets for a healthy relationship when it comes to. Frustrations later or successes later, right? We told you to get there.

There'd be 18 months before you'd start revenue or it'd be, you know, 18 months before you start seeing a huge tick and, you know, lunch and dinner, um, day parts. So, and so I think those are big life lessons that are, easy to skirt over and it could be a little bit difficult to do, but, um, I think that's really the best way to keep everything honest.

And then also just be your genuine self on what's working and what's not. So if people are genuine, I think that's where, um, the hospitality space really will take off and understand that you have good intentions going into it.

You're honest with each other. And that's really where. Successful girl.

Matt Holy: Yeah. It sounds like, like transparency is really at the core of what you were just talking about there, right? Like, uh, You restaurants are a very gritty industry to be a part of. And, you know, transparency is key when you're selling the restaurant to potential franchisee who might be new to the spaces as well.

Right. Um, but going back to something that George was saying before about. Recruiting the hospitality industry, kind of recruiting outside talent in, what other advice would you have for, um, Uh, yeah, these, these restaurant groups trying to recruit really good talent into an industry that's like really fun and exciting, but also a lot of really, really hard work.

Kim DeCarolis: Yeah. No, I would say that's exciting. I think, um, people from the outside in, as you know, and being in restaurant space, restaurants are very incestuous. People go from restaurant tech to restaurant tech or restaurant brand restaurant brand. And so bringing someone in perhaps from CPG or retail or grocery really, um, kind of a fresh set of eyes and perhaps something that hasn't been explored in a restaurant and or on the tech side on their approach or or even online.

Yeah. Um, what the tech company doesn't realize they can be a solve for. So I think that's something that a fresh set of eyes of bringing the outside in is something that's super exciting. Um, I'm of the mindset, you know, two minds are better than one. I mean, I don't know the correct answer to everything.

No one is perfect. And by collaborating with really smart individuals, you know, the talent only goes up. I don't actually want to be the smartest person in the room because I want to learn something every single day. You know, that's when people get stale. That's when ideas get stale. That's when sales. Um, I just think that it's important to really collaborate on trying to be innovative.

You know, there's new generations with new ways of communication and technology and ways to reach them that if you just keep doing things the same exact way, you're, you're not going to grow or reach a certain, um, generational base.

George Wetz: And that really speaks to diversity of experience and skill sets. but there's other kinds of diversity as well. I mean, it's shown. It's shown how important it is to decision making, leadership, uh, business, overall success on having a diverse array of opinions from a diverse group of people the team.

And you're a very prominent female figure in the industry of just speaking at a conference, um, in Atlanta recently about kind of female leadership in hospitality. And one, one question we're kind of curious of is your of. where you think the industry's at right now when it comes to female leadership, you know, how, how good a job is industry doing and where would you like to see, you know, some changes or some more progress?

Kim DeCarolis: Yeah, no, of course. I mean, my first job in the restaurant space, um, I of course interviewed with HR and then, um, I had the privilege of getting a promotion working for my mentor, Mark Wayne. And, , you know, I had to go into HR to change the paperwork, change who I'm working for. And this is sad, but it's true.

On my resume, when they opened my file, her notes were young and cheap. That's great. That's like, oh, that hurt. Um, but at the same time, I think are getting better. I think there's still a lot of work to do. Um, you know, I spoke also at QSR magazine in Atlanta. Um, there's a women in restaurant leadership conference, um, that put together their second year.

And they're really trying to focus on how to get. women a little bit more confident or a little bit more bold and in the room, let's just say. And, I'm impressed with the women in our space. I think we do a phenomenal job. I think more groups like that are needed. Um, one of my favorite, sessions was that actually women's food service forum. And, um, they have a great conference and a great organization as well. And, you know, they said that. Every woman should bring someone with them. So just sit in the room and listen, or just, or  pull them up, whatever, you know, two levels, because this is statistics, but industry shows that, you know, on a resume, if a woman can only do about 40 percent of the job applications, she won't apply. a man typically will just say, let's see what happens and get the call and then learn as they go. And so having a little bit more confidence or having more resources when it comes to. it's mentorship and there's a great group called lead that is providing mentorship. And so, you know, availability to say, should I do this?

Or am I strength at this? Or should I study and or practice prior to, so I have the confidence to go into this. And I think we're getting a lot better at that. I've had some great mentors throughout my career, Greg Creed, um, Jeremy Tyson, all are males, right? But they've always kind of pushed the boundaries of saying, why can't you do it and no, you should be in the room.

You are good at this and kind of building that confidence up. And so surrounding yourself with that, I think is super important. Obviously it's easier said than done just to say you want to be my mentor. It, it takes a lot of work. And so I think people also need to not use that as a buzzword, but use it more as, um, A formal invite to say, can you know, you invest in me to help me grow in my career? Um, and I think that will really. Really kind of catapult a lot of the programs, but I do think, like I said, um, you know, women's food service forum lead, um, women in restaurant leadership are providing those catalysts to get those people together to create those organic relationships where they can be outside of, you know, whatever your working organization is to build mentorship and build a safe space for people to kind of learn and grow as they, as they come through restaurants.

Matt Holy: yeah, mentorship is so, so important and it's great to see all, all those organizations that you, you just listed. We actually, one of our previous guests, Robin Robinson is I believe she's on the board. Of, of lead. Uh, she's great. She spoke about it a little bit, but, um, when, when you look at some of the statistics around female leadership and hospitality, yes, there's been progress, but still like a little bit slow.

So 10 years ago, it's about one in five execs or C suite were women, uh, in hospitality. Now we're, we're at about one in four women are executives, uh, in hospitality, leaning more on the HR and sales and marketing side.

 I guess just looking at those stats, do you think. There's something that is, still holding back women from being considered to go into those roles. Or, uh, do you think it just takes a little bit of time for the industry to adjust because at the same time at the director level, there's a 50, 50 split now, so is it just kind of the pipeline of, of new talent going into the roles?

It just takes a little bit of time to get there. Or is there still something, I guess, in hospitality and in industries as a whole that. Kind of needs to be adjusted.

Kim DeCarolis: you know, Um, change overall takes time, right? Nothing happens overnight in any capacity. So I think that, um, the right measures are being taken to have the change, you know, resources and change. Um, 1 of the things that was another W. F. F. comment is they really encourage men to come to the conferences. Which sounds a little bit interesting, but in their opinion, they said, why would we make decisions in a room that 50 percent of the generations or genders, excuse me, are not in. having men in the room to say, I didn't realize was happening or, you know, that this was going on, or you guys felt this way, it's not going to make any change because it's 50%, you know, generation or gosh, genders, excuse me. And, um, so I think that was a super powerful one. You know, there's some really great. men in the industry that do support women completely and are passionate about it. And I think it's just starting to get a voice, which I think of course is where, where a lot of change starts. Do I think there needs to be more progress?

I do. Um, but at the same time, you know, I think that it's important to, not knee jerk react and just hire a bunch of ladies and have them, you know, change your numbers on your HR report. I think the best person should get the job. do I think, uh, women listen a little bit better? Yes. Um, do I think that perhaps that, you know, there's different opportunities that are just assumed. guys, sure, but I don't think that anyone has it. really don't believe anyone has it out to just say that, um, you know, I'm not hiring a lady because she's a lady. I'd rather hire a male for a C level executive or if it is happening. I at least don't tell me about it. I, uh, you know, I want to say that there's, um, really good momentum and like, there's even organizations like worth, for example, um, Um, just making sure that women, when they're out at trade shows are feeling secure and safe, and they started selling pins so that, you know, they know who their male allies are.

And so I think just more awareness on those opportunities and expanding the group to be one big family instead of pockets of. clicks of groups that, you know, if someone's not there, you don't necessarily know who's, who's good people. And I think that goes across for men and women. And so, like I said, I'm positive and very hopeful about all the momentum. I think it's been good.

George Wetz: I think that's a really interesting point you're saying about the men being in the room, because also, it helps with empathy from the male female perspective, and then for them to share, you know, and then their networks as well from what they've heard firsthand in those groups. I really like that. And the other thing is you're speaking, you know, There's more of a propensity for the senior women's roles to be in areas like, um, HR marketing, but not in the others. That makes me think about role models and how important role models that kind of look like you are. Who have kind of been your role models in your career, if you don't mind me asking?

Kim DeCarolis: I, um, am a huge fan of Anne Fink from Pepsi. she is a powerhouse. I. say this in a very sincere way because I don't think she's actually that much older than me, but I openly, my family knows about this. I think, you know, I'm like, when I, when I grow up, I'm going to be him. Think like, she just carries herself perfectly.

She has a personality. She supports her team unbelievably well. other powerhouses are Sarika from Papa John's. She's amazing. She's actually in, um, technology and operations, IT. Super intelligent, super wonderful human. Now I'm going to forget a bunch of people. Um, I'm a part of a couple of different groups, kind of the women just get together, but everyone in there is unbelievably talented. Um, Kelly Grogan just put, um, you know, posted a master of class today about catering, and I think we're just getting more opportunities with some of these women that perhaps. Um, in the past, if you didn't know them, you didn't know them, but they're getting opportunities to speak out. My parents both worked my whole life, and so my mom was always working.

She was in real estate. And, you know, you learn a balance of travel and family versus work. But then you also learn hard work. You know, not every single day is going to be perfect. And I think just seeing women that work hard, and I think seeing women that want to do good is an inspiration and I don't think it even has to be a woman though, if I'm being honest, I think just good people in the world that work hard and can be a mentor,, is what you look up to be in whatever role yourself, Alice actually from crispy crunchy chicken. , in, at the QSR event and, um, you know, she gave some great advice and how, not every conversation you have is going to be perfectly pleasant, whether it's with an employer at a trade show on a conference call. And, you know, if you're just yourself and you're yourself all the time, and this is something that I swear gets me through trade work or trade shows is the same Kim you have at a trade show is the same Kim that will be at my dinner table tonight with my husband. And it's, know, it's easier just to be your authentic self and that's who you should be. You shouldn't want to act more like a man. You shouldn't have to act more like something you're not. And so if you are feeling, you know, yourself and you are always true to that, that's how you're going to be the most successful.

George Wetz: That's really interesting and great advice. And I guess it's just reflecting, as you said that perhaps it's as. there are now more women in leadership, the kind of needs to act in a different way.

That's maybe not yourself and not authentic is diminishing because there's more understanding and empathy around, you know?

Kim DeCarolis: promise you, I'm not going to go out with the boys and have bourbon. I don't like chest hair. It's not going to hurt. I like my stuff. So, I mean, just, you know, just if you're just yourself, it's, it's something I think that everyone is good at. And, you know, everyone is in this space because they're good at what they're doing, right? They would get flushed out quickly. So, you know, if you're here, just remember yourself that you're here for a reason. And if you are looking for more or you're looking how to get better, these are the uncomfortable conversations that you should have by saying, what could I have done better on that meeting? Or what can I do to be promoted in 10 months? Or what can I work on? Because eventually I would like to be perhaps a GM, or perhaps I'd like to be a C level executive in a brand. What would you say that, you know, I either need to take a class on, or, you know, could you give me the opportunity in a room to present and I'll work with you to present in the room and just making sure that you're. You're taking every opportunity you can. Um, Ashley from inspire brands, um, even said on one of the conferences, she's raise your hand. She's like, if you know, you're scared, put your hand in the air because then people recognize that. You're willing to do the hard work to either a get better or B roll your sleeves up and get the job done.

And I think that's something that, goes for men and women in the room of how to get noticed, no, one's going to come knock on your door and say, I saw your hard work and you know, I'd like to give you this opportunity. And the bow is, is on it. You know, you have to get out there. The world is very competitive, um, in, in restaurants and everywhere.

So 

George Wetz: Yeah.

This is so, so important. So important. And, and we move on to A bit of technology. One final question on diversity, which is generational diversity, something we're very interested in

Kim DeCarolis: Yes.

George Wetz: and understanding, I guess, the different characteristics different generations and how that translates into different styles in business. You're a millennial and senior. at this point. So you're going to have peers who are Gen X and baby boomer. What should, what should teams and people who work under millennials expect, in terms of management style or, or leadership style, if you can draw any conclusions there.

Kim DeCarolis: have any statistics on this, so I'm just going to go strictly off my personality, but I, you know, I'm casual, right? So I think that's a millennial. So just call me or text me. I don't have hours of operations, right? Whenever you call me, I'm going to answer or text, I'll get back to you really quickly. Um, but then at the same time, you know, I don't mind if your job is done, if your work is done for the day, you've done your calls and this is obviously sales leadership role. If you've done your calls and you go golfing at three. It affects me zero. Just get your job done. There's a balance of work and life because there's also trade shows that start on Sunday, and I don't give you hours back for that.

So I think as long as you are doing your job well, um, I would like to believe that millennials are pretty flexible on understanding that work life balance. And obviously there's details when it comes to sales versus I. T. or operations. Those are not as flexible. But, you know, as long as your work is getting done, I do believe in the flexibility. I do think the younger generations are looking for more black and white, where I don't have an off switch. You know, if I need to, I have a meeting tonight at 8 PM and I just, you know, it's okay. Um, so, and, you know, working internationally, you do a lot of things at night that are not necessarily going to fit in an 8 to 5.

I think. Um, some people, my generation or my age have gotten burnt out from that. But at the same time, you know, we have that work hard, play hard mentality where I think the younger generations are trying to make sure there is no burnout and they're trying to separate, between their personal life and their professional life to keep things balanced. those are observations just I see. Um, I think there's also a lot with, uh, remote work. the younger generations and I am a little bit of this believe they can work anywhere, you know, they're, they're in, you know, Spain, but their laptops are open and they're getting their job done. And then they're going to get later tonight. And that's okay. Right? I don't think there's anything wrong with that. You're here 1 time. So I think life should be enjoyed. But yeah, I think that's a big, I would say the difference. I just, the, the ways that, um, working with an older generation, you know, my boss at the time when I first started in sales, I couldn't leave the office.

I'm in an office every day from eight to whenever until I made 80 cold calls connected with them. I couldn't leave the office. And they're all recorded. There's no way around it. Everything's logged in Salesforce. Everything's recorded on my desk phone. And, you know, um, so some of the sales teams I've come across, I'm like, this is like the country club.

 Um, and so it's, you know, I think there's some, there's some pros and cons to both. But, um, every generation is obviously doing what they think perhaps was missing from the previous. And so eventually, perhaps like clothing styles, it'll come full circle. 

George Wetz: hundred percent. 

Matt Holy: Yeah. So interesting. I mean, like balance and flexibility, definitely, big trend we're seeing right now. And especially after coming out of the pandemic, rise of, of remote work, kind of changing how all industries work, um, but speaking of other things that, you know, are really shaking things up and changing the way we work and, and how we interact with each other is really kind of the Rise of AI and, and applications of that.

 the restaurant industry is, you know, typically seen as a little bit of a lagger, but we're really, we've really seen over the last couple of years, , some interesting use cases and applications of AI in a variety of different ways. So. You have a really unique perspective because you've worked on vendor side.

You've actually seen some of this innovation from idea phase to fruition, I'm sure, but then you've also been on the operator side where, you know, sometimes what looks good on paper, isn't good in practice. So, I guess using your experience, could you walk us through some of the applications of AI where you feel like actually this This is a really good use case for where we're at right now in the growth of AI.

Whereas others, uh, you know, maybe that I've missed the mark a little bit or are still in it and their infancy. 

Kim DeCarolis: What I think of AI, right, is initially because it was so and Big elephant in the room is Wendy's and dynamic pricing, you know, they, they got, um, they got pretty beat up and I, um, made this joke at the conference. I was at a couple of months ago where I was like, you know, brands right now are not talking about politics, religion or dynamic pricing because it just was such a flop and it's just, you know, and it, and I, to be clear, I don't disagree with dynamic pricing.

I actually think it's a good idea. Put that on the record there. So, um, I think there's ways that, um, it could be marketed better. And I think there's ways operationally, it could be beneficial where you reward. Cause it doesn't always have to be a surge pricing, right? It can always be a discounted pricing for having a, a customer behave in a different way.

So, you know, if I'm driving home from the airport at 3 PM, I'm thinking about what's for dinner tonight. So it's either me ordering dinner, my husband ordering dinner, or either one of us cooking and, or somehow procuring food. Right. And, um, so if I get a discount for ordering a meal that my husband's going to get home on the way, he's going to pick up on the way home from the gym, that we get a discount for pickup at 6 PM, but I ordered at three. You've trained me well, it's like Uber when you pre order it and Ubers of the world have done surge pricing. And we're, we don't even think twice. I want a car now and I hit. And so I don't understand why that would be not applicable to restaurants. You know, if there is a surge after conference or after a concert, you know, restaurants are getting slammed.

And so if it's going to cost you more money, To get a 10 piece chicken nugget, then people will probably pay. I'm not super stressed about that. You know, and if you get, football Sundays, if you can order ahead and get a discount or it's Sunday and game time is one o'clock, it makes sense to say that's okay.

The pizza is going to cost more today because. We have more staff. It can help offset labor. We have, you know, we're trying to throttle pizza times are at 45 minutes and we're working on this. Like that's, in my opinion, that is okay. Um, I do think that there's ways to do it or present it in a way that. Consumers can't get an opinion about it until they experience it. I think Wendy's was too ahead with it. And then everyone had an opinion and then they had to backpedal. Um, I do believe, and this is not confirmed, so come at me McDonald's, but I do believe McDonald's is testing some surge or discounting pricing.

, so dynamic on their app. a couple of weeks ago I was at a conference and someone said they ordered McDonald's and it was 8. 99 on Tuesday at 7 p. m. And then Thursday night at around 10, it was 11. 99. And I said, that's super interesting. I haven't gotten McDonald's in a while and I have not tested, but I think there's ways to do it that perhaps is a little bit, Little stealthy, or it could be, you know, presented in a marketing by saying we are going to be doing dynamic pricing, but order ahead so that our kitchen and our staff can prep that, you know, we'll give you a discount on that as well.

So that one I think is super interesting. Um, when it comes to AI, the tool is going to be as a smart as the machine learning data that goes into it. And so it. You have to be either all in on AI or focus on a certain sector of it to sample it because you can't just go straight automation and turn it all on and have everything correct.

I think, labor the way it is, I think using, voice ordering and, you know, an AI tool for drive through is excellent. I think, there's some people that are doing a great job at that. there's also obviously menu updates and. Kind of learning types of automation.

Obviously no one even has a phone call phone number listed on a website anymore. So 

George Wetz: We'll just, just, just see going to that. I just want to take back to the, the comment you're making about McDonald's because whether they are doing or not doing it, but what's interesting is that's from the app through app orders only. why I think that solves one of the problems with. in store dynamic pricing, because if you're doing, let's say you're doing a surge pricing, but in store, you as the consumer, you've already invested time and energy to go there.

Even if you're just diverting off your route to go to a drive through, it's minutes. so if you then get there and realize, oh, it's more expensive, going to be very damaging to the brand. But if it's in the app, your time investment as a consumer has been And you can still switch to a different provider without, you know, really any loss of time. So I think, I think that's really smart. Hmm. Hmm. 

Kim DeCarolis: it to see if they do get, you know, at card abandonment or they get, you know, um, larger orders or smaller orders during those times. I think there's a lot of data they can collect from that. I mean, but I'm guilty of this myself. If I am out and I'm looking for a ride home, whether it be to the airport or, you know, home from dinner, depending on where I'm at, Uber is very pricey, I leave and I go to Lyft. And I also do the same thing when it comes to wait times. I mean, I, I flip to your point exactly. So I flip between them looking for what I want, which is a ride or what you want is. And so I think that, you know, through the app and or through whether it's marketplace or whether it's through, call ahead ordering, however, you want to, however, you want to online ordering.

If they still have websites up doing that. I think that's super important. I also think it could be utilized during catering. We can get your order done. Today, but it is going to be more expensive than if you, uh, you know, allowed us 48 hours to prep this or a week to prep this. think the convenient charge is something that we're missing out on.

And labor has been nothing but challenging and expensive. And so, you know, that's a good way to offset by giving someone what they're actually looking  for, you know, the, their actual want, and then, you know, saying, we'll do it for you, but it's going to cost you more. And I, usually when people are in that rush or they need it, then it, Tell me what, you know, take my money.

Matt Holy: It's really interesting, especially, the Wendy's case study. I mean, part of it was they, they had a way that they wanted to brand it, I believe they called it dynamic. And then. Articles picked it up and called it surge. And that's when it spiraled out of control. So you kind of have to look at it on, on all angles there.

But you mentioned something interesting, which got me thinking about just, I guess, throughput in restaurants, right? Like based on how many people you have, in the kitchen on shift, right? There's a certain amount of throughput that that you could put out and and almost this dynamic pricing could be a way where if there is a concert and you're right outside where the concert was right after it goes in, you're getting slammed.

You could. Jack up your prices for your other channels to make sure like, look, if you want to pay where we're really slammed, we know we could only serve these people who are in store right now. Like it, it'll come out of premium. So yeah, I think there's some really interesting use cases. It's not black and white.

I think it's always going to land somewhere gray and there's going to be a lot of experimentation, but, um, 

Kim DeCarolis: I think it's super interesting. Cause I think a lot of people want, um, you know, cause then also AI and machine learning are obviously streamlined. Opportunities for the restaurant to take out the human, let's even human factor, whether it's good, bad or indifferent, but take out the error that humans make.

We're all humans, right? So take those out so that, you know, there are some operational efficiencies that come from AI and or AI. whatever it would be, robots, whatever fits your restaurant brand. but I do just to make sure that we say this, I do firmly believe. And then we've said this, this whole, this whole conversation that we are in the hospitality space and, you know, you can have an argument.

This has been used in many conversations at shows. And I'm sure you guys have heard this as well, that, you know, you can argue who has a better chicken sandwich. Is it Chick fil A or Popeyes? I'm team Popeye's. But it is never consistent. And when I go through the drive thru, which is super easy voice automation, I get greeted at the window and it says, how may I help you today?

I hope you have a blessed day. My pleasure. And it is the experience. And I think it, the experience of hospitality cannot be taken away through robots or machines. Like we. We as a restaurant space, I think are lagging because, you know, you go to a restaurant at the end of the day and you like the staff, they have great waitresses, waiters, and it's an okay burger, but you go there.

Cause you're just like, Oh, let's head up there. And you have a nice little table side chat and your burgers. Okay. But you're not going there necessarily for this perfect food. You're going there because. You get great service and that's what the service industry is for. And so I think those are things that perhaps brands have been scared of, or a little gun shy for it. And then the Wendy's, um, you know, Wendy's social media is super funny, right? They're snarky, they're, they're quick with it. And, and maybe they were trying to get ahead of it that way and keeping their persona, but, I think that more brands should explore it. For the operational and labor efficiencies. And then obviously I'm okay with dynamic pricing. Um, but I, I do think that, you know, one thing we can't lose in our space is, is the people in hospitality element.

George Wetz: We're nearly out of time. This has been a interesting conversation. I've got one more question for you. Which is around, it's, it's like, so the part of the restaurant sector that is automating fastest, and there's already the least amount of human contact is in QSR. And so I'm wondering if you have any thoughts specifically on QSR. As we're seeing different ways of interacting with technology, just mentioned ordering through voice AI, through drive thru from the consumer perspective, how do you think the nature of hospitality might change? Or what do you think consumers are going to be looking for? In the next few years, like do they want that human there or actually does a quirky on brand AI conversation?

Uh, and I mentioned this cause we had Wade Allen on the show recently, and he mentioned how 

they're thinking about doing kind of Easter eggs on the, on the phone when you call in and you can, cause they found in their testing, people talk back and forth to the AI cause they like the brand. So I'm just wondering if you could reflect on specifically on QSR and where you think kind of.

The human element will play most in in the minds of consumers.

Kim DeCarolis: I think generally with QSR, it depends who your, who your consumer is, right? So my dad is never going to go through the drive thru at McDonald's, pre order, pay, get a number, go to the drive thru, tell him his number to the drive thru AI and get his bag and leave. He will not, I promise you that. He's young, he's hip.

He travels all over the world. He will never do it. So, um, but I just think that, you know, one of the things that you have to know is your audience. Um, so like a great example is Brazing Canes. They are crushing it, right? They are doing an absolutely amazing job. Their target audience is 25 and under. They're going to be totally fine. They don't actually care if they talk to a human. Do not care. Um, you know, part of me says that's a lost art and it's really sad. We were long story short. We were friends in, um, visiting their daughter at college and we left the dorms and we were like, that was, that boy was so nice.

He talked to us. I was like, wow, the bar is low. It's just something that I think that it's a lost art. So part of me doesn't even want to say that they don't want to talk to humans, but it would make me sad if that was the case. Um, you know, but at the same time, I think whoever.

Whatever QSR is and whatever your demographic is, is really where you're going to be able to insert AI at certain points in the sale. So it, you know, raising canes is very simple also, right? And, you know, chicken tenders and sauce. So it's, it's something that I think the kids know what they want. It's simple, easy menu. but there's also, there's people that go. Two hamburger places and want, you know, extra pickle and lettuce. And is the machine learning going to know that? And who are you going to talk to if it's not made right, if you're dining in. And so I think there's just certain elements that could get lost there. Um, but 

Matt Holy: good advice to end on just knowing your customer again, like so widely applicable and, uh, yeah, it needs to be at the core of, I think. Successful business strategies. Well, Kim, we've got to wrap up. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show for our listeners. This has been Kim DeCarolis, hospitality sales, superstar, former SVP of strategic growth at Craveworthy Brands.

You could follow Kim on LinkedIn to stay up to date with all of her speaking events, uh, opinions about hospitality, uh, and her continued rapid career growth, I'm sure. So Kim, it's been a pleasure, really great conversation.

Kim DeCarolis: I appreciate it guys. Thank you so much for having me.